Cabins on Crown Land

Since I discovered a number of cabins built on, what the government map shows as, Crown Land, I’ve been interested in finding out how this could be. For the most part, these cabins looked pretty established, as if they had been there for years.

First of all, my intention to find out more is not driven by jealousy or a need to bring ‘justice’ to the offending parties. I live strictly by a ‘live and let live’ philosophy, and I have no need or desire to conjure up the long arm of the law to gratify my mind that those who shun obedience have been dealt with.

My main reason for wanting to understand this situation is simply to understand what circumstances could lead to the building of these structures and how those who are responsible for overseeing Crown Land view the building of structures on Crown Land. For example, would it be quite acceptable for anyone travelling in the area to use, either the structure itself, or the property it is located on? After all, this is supposed to be public land.

I did send an email to the MNR with some general questions regarding this matter. No specifics were included in this email. I haven’t received a reply yet, and I expect that if/when I do receive a reply it will be the typical ‘canned’ answer, that is so wildly vague as to make it as useless as tits on a bull.

There are regulations regarding the use of Public Lands online but, as is usual with any legal documents, they are very open to interpretation of the reader. Sometimes I think that they are that way because it gives authorities the ‘tools’ they need to interpret them in any way they want in order to bend them in any direction that may become necessary.

I did learn some things from researching this subject though. One surprise was that any aboriginal/native/first nations/Indian, person can build a structure on Crown Land, as long as said structure is pursuant to activities granted by treaties/agreements in place with governments. In other words, if such a person felt they needed a hunt camp or fishing camp, then the building of a structure would be accepted, no permit necessary.

Also, there seems to be some kind of allowance for structures to be built on mining claims. Keep in mind, a mining claim does not have to be some big company, it can be any person who files the proper paperwork and pays a modest fee for the right to look for minerals on a certain plot of land.

So far, these are the only two exceptions I can find, allowing for the placing of structures on Crown Land by the average joe. I know that, in the past, Crown Land could be purchased from the government, and those properties are now shown as ‘private’ on Crown Land maps. This is no longer the case, and Crown Lands are no longer sold to individuals as such. However, Crown Lands are still sold to other entities. For example, the city of Elliot Lake has an agreement with the government referred to as ‘The Elliot Lake Act’. This agreement allows Elliot Lake to purchase any Crown Lands within it’s 19 mile square city limits.

Anyway, the long and short of it all will probably end up being closer to ‘maybe’, ‘if’, ‘and’, or ‘but’. This is how politicians speak and, as funny as it may seem, this is also how weather forecasters speak. They all leave the ultimate answer unanswered, so that they can never be proven wrong, no matter what the circumstances. It’s an excellent lesson in how the human mind works, and how really screwed up we’ve become.

UPDATE;

I have now received a reply to my email that I sent to the MNR. It was transferred around a bit until it reached the local area MNR office. I wasn’t totally disappointed with the way that my questions were answered because the lady that sent the reply did try, within the limitations of government policy, to clearly explain how the rules and regulations pertained to my specific questions.

I did learn that there are, in fact, other ways in which these cabins I have seen on, what appears to be Crown Land, may have come about. For one thing, Crown Land has been leased in the past, and these leases may still be in effect today, although it is made clear that leases can be changed or updated, depending on a number of factors. To do this, one must apply for, and be granted, what is called a Recreational Land Use Permit.

These LUP’s(Land Use Permits) that were issued are not guaranteed into the future. If it is found that the terms and conditions of the permit were not being followed, the permit could be revoked. Also, it was pointed out that these types of LUP’s were no longer offered by the MNR, so only past LUP’s exist. I may contact them again to find out how one might be able to determine if any given structure is, in fact, an LUP on Crown Land.

As far as semi-permanent things on Crown Land, such as trailers goes, I do believe that it is very difficult, under the current rules, to regulate that issue. Since it is perfectly legal to put a trailer on Crown Land for up to 21 days in any one location. After the 21 days, it is required that the trailer be moved to a different location, but only 100 meters from where it was. Given the fact that some of these locations are quite remote, I can’t see how they could determine how long a trailer has been where. This would take manpower that I don’t think the MNR has at the moment, so trailers are left on site for much longer periods. Besides the fact that, often times, it is not really clear who might own any particular trailer. These trailers are usually just rolling junk, that aren’t worth a whole lot, so no big loss if they get trashed.

Anyway, I was satisfied that I got a pretty decent picture of the state of affairs regarding structures on Crown Land.

As far as lakes on mining properties goes, the MNR wasn’t really willing to clarify this issue too much. Basically, they just told me to ask permission from the mine property owners if I wanted to access a lake on mine property for the purpose of kayaking on it. I did this and did not receive a reply.

So, overall, the waters are pretty muddy regarding Crown Land. My sense is that, just like a lot of things in life, you make your move and you take your chances. If you get away with things, which is weighted fairly heavy on the likely side, then good for you. However, if you happen to step on the wrong toes, then you might find yourself dealing with the long and slow arm of the government.

I did contact the MNR again to find out if there were any maps that show LUP’s and was told that there were not any public maps that show these locations.

Update

Thanks to Peter’s comment on the post; Presently Popular, I’ve now done some more research on the subject of Cabins on Crown Land.  In particular, I found some interesting information on Trapper’s Cabins.  It seems that these cabins can be built on Crown Land, at no cost to the trapper.  Here’s an excerpt from the MNR, which relates to this subject;

Trapline building(s) may be required by licensed

trappers to provide for shelter,

accommodation, safety and efficient trapline

management. The Ministry’s Free Use

Policy PL 3.03.01 provides that buildings used by

a licensed trapper consistent with this

policy do not require land use occupational authority (e.g. land use permit, lease) under

the Public Lands Act.

From here;            http://tinyurl.com/n9ghnht

So, as you can see, this is also a way that these cabins might appear in remote areas, and could very well explain some of the structures I’ve seen in my travels.  Nowadays, you do have to complete a course specifically designed for trapper training, and you need to buy a trappers license, which is about $40.   You would then have to procure an area to trap in.  After that, you can legally put up a cabin on that Crown Land property.

It’s also interesting to note that, in 1997, the rules regarding such cabins were revised so that these cabins could be used year round, which might be of interest to those who would consider going this route, in order to have a cabin on Crown Land.   It is also lawful, and acceptable, for the owners of these cabins, and those accompanying them, to use the cabins for purposes such as fishing, hunting, berry picking etc.  Although it must be kept in mind that these cabins are permitted for the main purpose of operating a trapping line, and this must always be verifiable.

Another little tidbit I just found out, although I’m not certain of the official version, is that the MNR will give a catch ‘quota’ to the trapper, for the trapline, and the trapper must meet at least 75% of that quota, in order to retain the rights to this trapline.  Seems a bit strict to me, but this is the information I came across during my research.

Also, getting a registered trapline is not guaranteed.  There are only 2,800 registered traplines in Ontario, and the MNR controls who gets them.  Even if you get a trappers license, you may be waiting a long time to get a trapline.

 So, again, thanks to Peter for bringing up the subject, so that I could do some more research, and find this interesting information.

Update

I’ve just come across another possible way that one can build a cabin on Crown Land and, that is the topic of this update.  It seems that the MNR will also allow the building of cabins by those who are in the business of Bait Fish Harvesting.  As long as you have a license to harvest bait fish, you can apply to the MNR to build a cabin, in support of that business.  You would need to show that the cabin is required, due to the location of the bait fish harvesting, ie; remote location.  And, there are size restrictions on buildings, with the main building not being greater than 400 square feet.  Here is the link to the exact info on that;

https://www.ontario.ca/page/bait-harvesting-occupational-authority

But, again, the MNR does control where bait fish can be harvested and, you may not be able to get a harvesting license for the area that you want.  All you can do is, check with the MNR to see if there are spots available in that particular BHA(Bait Harvesting Area).  Having said that, here is the link pertaining to getting a Bait Harvesting License and, the costs of doing so;

https://www.ontario.ca/page/get-commercial-bait-licence

Update

Since this has been a very popular post, I thought that I would add some of my thoughts, as to what I would do, and might do.  I’ve always felt that we were, and are, being railroaded, as far as the use of our own public lands goes.  Much of it is inaccessible, just because it’s so remote, and there are no roads to get into it.  However, anywhere there are roads, the MNR controls access, by either gating it, digging trenches, piling rocks, or dirt, taking out bridges, or simply by putting up signs.

These measures are usually taken to protect the area from those who should have free access to it.  They will claim that they are protecting remote tourist lodge owners, and their businesses but this is BS to me.  Any reputable remote lodge owner can find places that are not accessible by a road.  There are untold remote areas, just here in Ontario, that lodges could use.  Maybe the ones that have roads close to them should think about moving to a more remote area.  I’m sure that their customers would prefer that anyway.

I could go on for a long time about this, but it won’t do any good.  What will help is finding ways around these communist tactics.  So, I’m going to suggest one way that some people might like, I know that I like this idea.

If you want to build a permanent structure on Crown Land, you will need approval from the MNR to do so, and if you do it without approval, they can take actions against you.  Most of the time, it will be other people, who find your dwelling, and report it though.  The MNR does not have enough staff to be searching the vast wilderness for illegal structures.

However, you can side step this issue by building a semi-permanent wilderness structure, that is far less likely to be found and, even if it was found, would be no loss.  There are all kinds of wilderness structures one could build, and there’s tons of information on the internet on how to  build one.  Just do a search and you’ll find something that suits you.

Personally, I think that the teepee is one of the oldest, and most useful structures ever created.  Building a wilderness teepee, out of the materials you would find in the bush, is probably the easiest way to go, and you’d be surprised how comfortable they can be.  You can have a fire inside the teepee, both to cook on, and for warmth.  They can be used in winter too.  You can make them as elaborate, or as simple as you like.

Just to give you and idea of what I mean, I did find some nice pictures of what can be done, in a limited amount of time.  Here’s a wilderness teepee that I think most people could build fairly quickly;

You start very simply, with three long poles,  that you can cut from the surrounding forest.  Lash them together at the top.

Add more poles, and then start filling it in with whatever materials are available.  In this case they used pine bows, but I would highly recommend that you try and find an area with lots of moss on the ground.  You can cut this moss into sheets, and apply them over top of the poles, all the way to the top.  This makes a more fireproof inside covering, if you have the dirt side of the moss facing inward.  It also provides nice insulation, and waterproofing.  You can add pine bows, or other materials, such as leaves, on top of that for even more insulation.

I don’t have enough space to upload anymore pictures on this blog, but you get the idea.  There are tons of designs for these types of structures online.  This is a fairly simple one, I’ve seen other that are a bit better, bigger, and still fairly easy to construct.

A structure like this would be quite difficult to see, until you were right on top of it, so it has good stealth.  Even so, it wouldn’t be a great inconvenience if someone did find it, and possibly trash it.  You could build another one quite easily, and finding a different location would be part of the fun.  You could even build multiple teepees, in different areas, so that you could just go to another one, if one was trashed.

Like I say, there’s always a way around obstacles that are put in our way, and it’s not only fun finding them, it’s also fun doing them.  I often paddle past million dollar cottages.  I see the same million dollar view that they see, only I don’t have to look at that same view every day.  Even the best view tends to become mundane after a certain amount of time.  Being able to move your dwelling easily is definitely a plus, and this is what most native peoples used to do.

I understand that some people may want a more permanent, and traditional structure but, take it from me, it costs more than it’s worth.  I’ve been there, and done that.  It’s harder to hit a moving target, so just stay as long as you want, in one place, and then move to  a new location.  Variety is the spice of life.

I want to make one thing clear, regarding building any type of structure on Crown Land, whether it be a rough wilderness/survival type shelter, or a more conventional cabin.  This land is not yours, it is held in trust, by the government, for use by everyone.  Unfortunately, our trust is not always well placed, but that doesn’t mean any of us can go into the wilderness and claim a piece for ourselves.  As far as I’m concerned, no one can ‘own’ the land.  It would be more correct to say that the land owns us, and it will take us back at some point.  Ownership of land is just a human mind-made fantasy.  It’s just as ridiculous as saying that someone ‘owns’ all the animals on a piece of land. 

Anyway, the point I’m trying to make is that, if I do build a structure on Crown Land, I’m doing it knowing that I don’t ‘own’ that land.  I’m doing it with the intention of using this wilderness resource ‘temporarily’.  If the structure is found, or I find that it is being used by someone else, I will disassemble it and return the area to a natural state, and find another location.  It’s important, when we do something like this, not to let our minds slip into the ‘ownership’ fantasy.  You/I have no rights to defend here, except for using our wilderness in a respectful way, and be willing to relocate, if that should become necessary, without any arguments. The fact is, relocating now and then is probably a good idea, both for the natural habitat, and for stealth purposes. 

All further info on this post will appear on my new blog here;

Welcome

I have now put up a new blog post, regarding this subject, at the blog link just above this line.  This is my current blog, and all new posts will appear here.  However, I will try to keep this particular blog post updated with links to new post, on my current blog.  To that end, you will find links below, that will take you to new posts, on my current blog, regarding this subject.

Wilderness Teepee Info